Syrian Christians of Kerala
This is Part 2 of an article about Thomas the Apostle of India. Please click on the link for Part 1.
As I mentioned in Part 1, one of the most controversial aspects of the Saint Thomas story (other than the question of whether it is true or not) is how he died in Mylapore. There are a couple of versions of how it happened. One version claims that he was killed by a Hindu king. The other version indicates that he was stabbed in the back and killed by a Brahmin. Both cases provides for the concept of a martyr which is important for Christianity. Remember that Jesus Christ himself was a martyr and was killed by the Jews (many Jews do not accept this aspect of the Christ story as a fact).
The implications of this story are clear and needs no elaboration. But there are several inconsistencies to this story. This version of the Saints death contradicts the version mentioned in the Gnostic texts. There are also several accounts of his death not only in India but outside of India. And most importantly no stories about his death in modern day India (particularly in Mylapore) existed before the arrival of the Portuguese in India.
“Brahminical” religions (Shaivism and Vaishnavism) were not major factors in South India in the first century during the time of Saint Thomas. They started establishing themselves in places like Kerala and Tamil Nadu only from the sixth century onwards at best. So the background for the stories surrounding the martyrdom of Saint Thomas reflects South Indian society in the 15th century (when the Portuguese were around) and not 52 AD South India when the Saint was supposedly killed!! The fact is that the Saint Thomas Mount sits on the site of an even older Shiva temple.
When Christian Europe started conquering India starting in the 14th and 15th centuries they were faced with a simple problem. They found out that the stories of “god sacrifice” and the gods who live, die and rise again from the dead are found in Indian mythology and are not unique to Christian mythology alone.
They assumed that the Indians knew about these myths because the founders of Christianity including Jesus Christ himself probably visited India. They also assumed that some of these Indians might be the lost tribes of Israel. They unfortunately did not consider the fact that Indian mythology probably might be pre-Christian or pre-Judaic or the fact that all these mythologies may have come from common but much more ancient societies.
The worship of the “sacrificed god” and the “resurrected god” dates back to the days when human beings worshiped the sun (sun worship is still very common in India). Understanding the sun, solar patterns and its impact on the earth and human life was a vital issue for ancient humans. The sun rises, dies (overcome by darkness) and rises again. This is the esoteric meaning behind the resurrected god mythology (in Eastern religions including Hinduism we call this resurrection as Avatars).
The sun was worshiped in many parts of the world with different names. Gods like Buddha, Vishnu and Krishna are sun gods. Another name for a lesser known sun god is Tam or Tamas (in the Middle-East this god is known as Tammuz). Tamas which means “dark colored” in Sanskrit was worshiped in India as well. These sun worshipers worshiped the “dark” sun as they themselves had darker skin.
Krishna is often portrayed with a dark skin in South India but mostly as white skinned in the North. Krishna in the south particularly in Tamil Nadu and Kerala is also known as Kannaya, Kannan and Yeshu (Yesho-da). The Portuguese were clearly surprised by an indigenous group in India worshiping the dark rising and falling sun god Tamas (Thomas) and even more surprised when the realized that the object of their worship was Tamas and not Jesus Christ. Interestingly even today Christians all across Kerala fondly call Christ as Karthave (the dark one) or Yeshu both of which are also names for Krishna (gods like Vishu were also called as Vishnu Yeshu). There is also a group of Christians in Kerala known as Kannanite Christians.
Some of these Tamas worshipers used Chaldean texts as part of their scripture and these scriptures did not mention anything about Jesus Christ (There is some controversy as to whether these were actually Chaldean texts or other but noted Christian missionaries like Abbe Huck believe they are Chaldean). Finding Chaldean texts in India should not be surprising. The Chaldeans as a society included priestly class from some of the major nations in the world including India (the use of a certain language for worship that is not commonly spoken or extinct is very common in society. This is one of the tools used by the priestly class to withhold or filter what they considered as sensitive information. The use of Sanskrit, Latin and Arabic in places of worship today are good examples).
Not surprisingly most of the Chaldean texts were then burnt by the Portuguese and the process of “correcting” Indian history began. Why would the devote Christian missionaries burn texts that will provide proof to their theory that Saint Thomas visited India in the first century and the Tamas (Thomas) Christians are his followers? The answer is obvious. Tamas was not a Christian cult. They were a Surya (Sun) cult. Is this how they got to be known as “Syrian (Surya) Christians”?
Was the language spoken by the followers of Tamas called Tam-ul (or Tamil)? We all know that Tamil is an ancient South Indian language. It was the dominant language of the land in 52 AD and also during the time when the Europeans started arriving in South India. It is the centerpiece of the Dravidian language family. Its written history alone goes back to at least 300 BCE (Sangam Period). Tamil also has similarities to the now extinct Elamite language (Elam in Tamil means homeland) and Bruhi (a language spoken in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is also close to where Chaldean was once spoken). Are the Tamils the ancient Tamas worshipers? It is interesting to note that the Rising Sun (Uthaya Surian) is the symbol of the Dravida Munetra Kazagam (DMK) party that has dominated Tamil politics since independence.
So where did the Syrian Christians come from? They probably did not come from anywhere. They were here all this time along with the rest of us.
Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true – Buddha
Related posts:
- Saint Thomas the Apostle of India
- Tamil is Part of Indian Heritage
- Ravi Zacharias: Christian Missionary From India
- Onam And The End of Buddhism in Kerala
- Sabarimala: Light of Knowledge For Devotees
Category: Culture & Religion
Dear Hari,
Kindly refer to Malayalam-English dictonary to get the meaning of “Karthave”.You are fee to write any theories.But please do not make your own meanings to the words, which is and which was not in use. This will reveal your true intentions to the readers.
Welcome Dipumon George. One cannot easily dismiss these as “my theories”. This article was written based on numerous books written by Indians and others on this subject some dating back even to the 18th century as this myth was getting more popular. This includes the work by Godfrey Higgins called Anacalypsis published around 1829.
My only true intention is to write about what I consider to be a well crafted myth.
I think there are obvious flaws in the actual ‘theory’ of the whole argument. Words like usual can be broken down into various parts making a different meaning based on the writers interpretation. So words like yeshu and karthave seems to be used as liking and fitting the theory at hand.
St Thomas coming to India is a vastly agreed fact in India, but him being a twin brother is not. Actually various references are made to James as the brother and he was not one of the apostles.
I should however say, that it makes for a compelling read. No offence meant here. Unfortunately I am like St Thomas, the Doubting one, …
Welcome Melvin,
I am not offended by your criticism or the sarcasm. I expect nothing less from die hard believers. Everybody is a skeptic or a “doubter” when it comes to thoughts and beliefs that are different from those they believe in!
As I mentioned to Dipumon this is not my theory. Many individuals who are experts in the field of religion have written about it. All you need to do is do a simple Google search or buy a few books on this subject from Amazon bookstore to learn more about it. I am not the one manipulating things to fit the theory. The Portuguese did it.
Let us talk about flaws in the actual “theory”. At one time the Church and its followers believed that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe (Galileo was put under house arrest for challenging this view by the Vatican). They also believed that the whole known universe was created about 6000 years ago in a matter of 7 days. But today even the Vatican agrees with most of what is stated in the theory of evolution. Looking back it made for some interesting read didn’t it? Whatever happened to the above widely believed facts now?
There are many stories that are taught in schools in India that run contrary to historical facts. The story of Saint Thomas in India is one of them. Although most of the world (including Catholic institutions) have distanced themselves from this story it is still accepted as a fact by some Indians.
I believe that Saint Thomas is a mythical character. There is very little dispute that the “Gospel According to Thomas” was not written by Saint Thomas. So Saint’s “achievements” and places he visited are only limited by the imagination of the author writing about him. But I choose not to believe these mythical stories. I am not alone. I know at least one other person who is in my corner as well. He is the Pope!!
Yes, what Hari writing is absolutely correct. St. Thomas converted Brahmins of Kerala in AD 52? What a stupidity! First of all, there is no evidence that St. Thomas came to Kerala. Secondly, there were no Brahmins. The history says Brahmins came to Kerala in 5th or 6th century. It is a propaganda by the upper cast Christians that they are ancient Brahmins and converted by St. thomas.
Stop this idiocy! please.
Welcome Justin … you are right … there are no evidences for these ancient conversions.
had fun reading this blasphemy too…!!!
lol…i hope you write a book on this and yes,i assure you…you will make a lotta money…
lol
Rinzu Susan,
This may be news to you but it is known to historians and the skeptics for over 200 years. So I do not think I can make any money by publishing a book on this topic. Maybe I will write a Mills and Boon novel that you are used to reading.
This is absolute crap………Get your history right.
St. Thomas converted a group of Jewish settlers who had settled in Kerala during AD 52.
It is a myth that he converted Brahmins in Kerala, who arrived only in the 6-7th Century.
The oldest of the Indian Jewish communities is in Cochin.The Cochin Jews arrived in India 2,500 years ago and settled down in Cochin, Kerala as traders.
Jewish traders from Judea arrived in the city of Cochin, in what is now Kerala, in 562 BC, and more Jews came as exiles from Israel in the year 70 C.E. after the destruction of the Second Temple during the Exodus.
Also Bene Israel (a jewish group) arrived in the state of Maharashtra 2,100 years ago.
So let me get this straight. According to you as the Rig Veda was being composed 2500 years ago there were settlement of Jews in Cochin and soon after Ben Israel arrived in Maharashtra!! In addition Saint Thomas converted some of these Cochin Jews to Christianity in AD 52 before the religion called Christianity came into existence and 350 years before New Testament Cannon. Unfortunately there are no Indian references to support these early claims. Are there any Jewish accounts of Jews getting converted to Christianity in ancient India by Saint Thomas?
Saint Thomas story is a myth.
Contrary to the st. thomas legend all legends in kerala speak of brahmins there before 6-7 century ad. This is another colonial invention to invert the truth to win converts. The idea was to convince the average malayali that christianity had an earlier claim on kerala in comparison to hinduism. The sad nature of world is lies repeated hundreds of times become historical tradition at the expense of all other earlier traditions. If the keralait brahmins had come only in 6-7 century when brahminism was floruishing in tamil nadu and even the foreign jews had arrived in the scene earlier, any rational person will understand that the rendering of this history is illogical. The only way to render suppport to such a baseless claim is to quote an actual ancient tradition in kerala which records that brahmins came only in 6-7 century. The habits , the distinct cultural practices of malayali brahmins, and the support of sangam literature, as well as local legends clearly indicate that brahmins were here in kerala much before 6-7 century. The next part about syrian christians as repeatedly emphasized survives only in the form of legends propagated by syrian christians. One could have taken this seriously if it had not been contradicted by christian history. Further one could have even taken it seriously if non christians had also presrved legends of st thomas. Furthermore the colonial christians of that time, were habitual liers, as further indicated by their own recorded methods used for conversion. The fact that the history of keralaite christians was under the preserve of such vested interests who saught to propagate their religion by hook or crook lends very little credibility to the story of st thomas coming to India. The fact that these legends were propagated by habitual liers whose aim was to destroy indian traditions is enough to suspect the legends. To be fair to syrian christians, one must give respect to the fact that they may have belonged to a genuinely ancient tradition. That there could have been Indian converts including brahmins may have been statistically possible, just as there were brahmin converts among the jains, the buddhists and the muslims. The fact that they followed the teachings of an ancient st. thomas tradition is certainly true. This st. thomas however did not seem to have come to India, even according to global christian tradition. Thus the burden of proof is on the syrian christians if they want to propagate that the mythical st. thomas came to India. I can understand the outrage of the syrian christians , but they should also understand the outrage of others that they are fed up of eating all the lies that came to India during the colonial era.
The truth has to come out one day. Claims without any evidence can not be considered as history. Well done Hari.
Well said Justin.
myths are no strange to any religion, particularly to religions in india. plz write an article about indian myths on which political parties are fighting for, eg. sethu samudra.
Welcome Yothu,
This is more than a myth. It is manipulation of Indian history by colonial powers. Also your comment about Sethu Samudra shows that you are thinking along religious lines. The fact that the Tamil Nadu government is ok with drilling in the Adam Strait shows that they do not consider this Hindu myth to be true (I agree with the TN government). But the same government does not deal rationally when it comes to the Saint Thomas mount near Chennai :)
I think this whole article missed the central point with all its wild speculations on syrian christians and chaldeans.
There is no complexity here. St. Thomas reached as far as Syria. His disciples continued to spread his message and reached India and tried to propagate his faith and won a few converts along with some syrian traders. Now there is no evidence that st. thomas came to India. Further there is no basis to claim that some christian was persecuted in mylapore, it was just an excuse to destroy the mylapore shiva temple, in the same way as the excuse to take over the kashi vishwanath and somnath temple was. This is intelligent history. Rest is wild speculation with no basis at all. What is the big deal about a dozen brahmins converting to christians in 4 or 5 century. Lot of brahmins even kept prostitutes and did far more barbaric acts. Point is Indians did not persecute thomas and there is no evidence of that. On the contrary the portugeese were among the worst persecuters ever seen in India. We dont have to believe a tale spun by such wretched colonizers with no document to support either. What st. thomas christians need to understand is that quite often myth gets carried over to settings in new lands, for example indonesians believe that scenes in ramayana occured there. This no way invalidates his message and that at some stage his disciples came to India. End of story and why so much emotion and wild speculation.
Welcome Harish,
When discussing religion and ancient history two things come into play: emotion and speculation. We do not really know about what happened 2000 or 3000 years ago. Most of what we think we know are mostly speculative in nature including our belief in god.
Saint Thomas visiting India and establishing the Church is a very important story for Christians in India. We know that this story is not based on facts. I just wanted to present it to my readers as I see fit.
Speculation in my opinion is believing that Saint Thomas (very likely a mythical figure) visited Syria and that his devotees later came to India and spread Christianity. This is a new theory made popular by Pope Benedict’s statement a few years ago when he said that Saint Thomas most likely did not visit India but probably visited the Middle East. Like the old theory this theory is also not backed by evidence.
Well we know that there are christians who call themselves syrian christians. So someone obviously came to Indian much after christianity evolved in syria, which means much after the so called original thomas the apostle. Now there is no historical document in India or elsewhere that this particular thomas came to India. so what is the point? Now the next question is why did I say that the present day syrian christians were Indians and syrians, because that is what their legends say. Even if there legends cannot be proven ,the fact that they followed this syrian tradition, indicates that some syrian christian did come to India, and that too after this version of christianity developed there. everything is speculation, as I said already. Ishwar sharan has given a good treatment of this subject. You just wildly speculate, and people will not even feel like reading your article completely, because it is way off the mark.
Harish … you keep saying that I am speculating after writing a paragraph about Syrian Christians being Syrian and Indian based on pure speculation (you yourself indicate that there is “Even if there legends cannot be proven ,the fact that they followed this Syrian tradition, indicates that some Syrian Christian did come to India)”. Do you see the irony here? I know about Ishwar Sharan. He has commented on one of my articles :)
I do see many remarkable similarities between Krishna and Jesus. Phonetically, Yeshoda Krishna and Yesu kristu (as called in Tamil) are similar. Both were born in lowly conditions (in prison and manger), and newborns around that time were persecuted by the rulers in both cases.
For their teachings, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6), highlighting Himself as the only way to salvation.
Krishna said, “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear” (Gita 18.66)
Murali,
There is no question that there are tremendous similarities between Krishna and Kristu. I also believe that there are a lot of similarities between Brahma and Abraham (father Brahma) as well. Your points about the teachings of Jesus and Krishna are well taken.
There is a big difference Murali Jesus no one comes to father( meaning God) but by me, and krishna says everybody has to eventually come to me regardless of the different demigods they worship because it is I who answers their prayers. Jesus on the other hand says “hell to those who dont come to me and heaven to others who come to me” This means that there is not only no union with god because heaven and hell are separate from God and further jesus refuses to answer prayers of those that dont come to him. It may be understood that Jesus claims himself incapable of helping those who dont come to him. This kind of preaching is typical of a lower demigod or a person with limited powers. Period.
when i read the first post i felt it could be something new but your second post was appalling.
just goggle Brahma-Abraham or Christ-Krishna and you will have at least 20-30 different blogs on similar lines as yours.
Your over dependence on Portuguese however is also the article’s fall,the Syrian community of Kerala was always a very powerful community whether in wealth or influence.
This proud and educated community is not the type that can be taken for a ride especially on matters of faith or their rich history.
so wash away the idea of the Portuguese implanting their version of history as its clear with the coonan cross oath how defiantly the Syriacs met the Portuguese.
also there is a lot of heartburn especially if you hear mr vellapalli nateshans statements on the massive success of the community.
but most of all what i love about Christianity is its absolute inner strength, if you hari was a Christian writing on Hindu deities be sure you will have the different rss factions on your back or other way round get your palms hacked.
i love the increase in faith among the Syrians despite new improved versions of stories coming out every day.
hope you can come with some fresh ideas next time.
Welcome Roshan. Thanks for the “critique” of my article. I never claimed in my articles that my views on the Syrian Christians are unique. On the contrary I have mentioned that the story about the Syrian Christians have been disputed by European historians over hundred years ago. So I am not surprised that you also found this on other blogs. But what about the stories in the Bible that have been reproduced from other more ancient religions and myths? Do you really think that I am the only one who has to bring some fresh ideas to the table?
Everybody is in love with their religion and they have their own take on what their religion is. You say Christianity has absolute inner strength. Do you know how many hate mails I have got on this article that I have not published? When it comes to spewing hatred on those who question the status quo no religion is above any other including Christianity.
My blog has several articles (including featured articles) where I have challenged the status quo on Hindu deities. The reaction to those articles is no different than the ones that I have received on this. Your statement “if you hari was a Christian writing on Hindu deities” has already happened. It is not Hari the Christian who did it, it was the Christian Portuguese, British, Dutch and the Spanish who did it. The RSS or other Hindus or Buddhists did not hack their palms. In fact all these Christian Europeans stayed around and exploited the Indians for the next 400 years!!
You are preaching Christian inner strength and suggesting that Christians are more tolerant than Hindus to a country and and culture that has been exploited to the hilt by Christian European empires for well over 500 years!! Nice sermon pastor :)
Hari I told you, your article completely misses the point. There is just so much wild speculation that the core fact “That europeans and the portugeese have brainwashed the Indian christians including the syrians to believe somethings which are absolutely contrary to any fact”
The only things that really stand are
1. There is not an aorta of proof that the original St. Thomas ever stepped foot in India.
2. That layers of colonial speculations have been incorporated in folk songs of kerala.Only natural , I can give many examples in history to show how this has been possible.
3. That syrian christians were exactly what they were- syrians and Indians converted to that syrian version of christianity which owed its origin to a “controversial character” called st. thomas, who himself may or may not have had direct association with christ.
Harish,
I am not sure in what sense my article is missing the point. I mentioned in an earlier response to you that we cannot leave speculation out of any discussion on history. You matter of fact state that “That Europeans and the Portuguese have brainwashed the Indian Christians including the Syrians to believe somethings which are absolutely contrary to any fact“. I would love to know more about the “Indian Christians” who the Europeans and Portuguese supposedly brainwashed in the 15th century.
I agree with you on #1 and #2. But I am not sure what you mean by “That Syrian Christians were exactly what they were- Syrians and Indians converted to that Syrian version of Christianity“. If this is true then who brought the Syrian version of Christianity to India and when did this happen?
It is a fact that Jews lived in Malabar even during the time of Christ, because Malabar was the main source of pepper and spices and Jews too were very active in trade and commerce.
Therefore, it can be deduced that St. Thomas also knew of the Jews in Malabar and may have arrived in Malabar.
The trade was by Arab dhows between Middle East and Malabar. Even Vasco da Gama had hired an Indian pilot to sail to malabar.
It is likely Christians from Middle East came to settle in Malabar that was already hosting Arabs and Jews. They were from middle east, but not necessarily from present day Syria.
Most importantly, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramiac, that is also called ‘Syriac’ and changed over to ‘Syrian’ in Malabar and the Catholics who follow ‘liturgy’ call themselves in many names, including Syrian Christians. This does not mean to say they they are migrants from modern ‘Syria.’
For a casual reader, it is very confusing to understand the Catholics of Malabar, as they call themselves, in so many names in addition to ‘syrian christians’. The term Christian includes all denominations of Christianity, including CATHOLICS. Catholics in turn are subdivided into Roman, Eastern, Coptic, Orthodox, Maronite, Armenian etc but follow the liturgy APPROVED BY ROME, but the language can be any (latin, Syriac, English, and various local languages, like Malayalam, Marathi, Punjabi, Konkani etc). But the Dogma of Faith is same.
The term Syrian Christian for me can mean any thing, like some Christians owing elegance to some church in present day Syria, who could be anything Christian.
Malabar Catholics although may follow different language in Liturgy such as Aramaic (Syriac), Latin, Malayalam or English, but they are Malabar Catholics. I hope some body takes the initiative to change this ‘syrian’ thing that causes confusion to the blogger as well as me!
Welcome Vence,
Jews may or may not have traded with Kerala 2000 years ago. Trading is different from having permanent settlements (most of the small Jewish population in Kerala came to Kerala from Europe after the 15th century). How do we go from Jewish traders to Saint Thomas being in Kerala in the 1st century? It is a leap of faith.
There is no evidence to suggest that “Christians from Middle East settled in India that was already hosting Jews and Arabs”. Some DNA testing has been done on Catholics in Kerala and the results show that their DNA is not different from non-Catholics living in the same region.
I agree that there is a lot of different names for Catholics in Malabar and it could be confusing. But this is true for all religions of India.
ha ha ha ..madarasi/ African here is the evidence of migrartion
The M17 is one of the most controversial markers as far as India is concerned. We have long known through oral traditions and literature that people from Eastern Europe/Central Asia migrated to India in our not so recent past (the Aryan invasion theory). The M17 marker found among certain Indians (including me) proves once and for all that “:Europeans did migrate to India
‘. ha ha lolllllllllllll on the floor oral traditions :))))))))))))))))))))))
this is special for you
[delete]
Aryan Khan is a nice name for a Christian who wants to create a problem between Hindus and Muslims. It should also be noted a person using a Christian name has submitted a comment on this site from the same IP! You are neither Aryan nor a Khan but a total racist fool. You do not have the intellect to understand that individuals can look different (including skin color) but have very similar DNA (father and son are good examples).
Bottomline is all the christian origin theories are pure speculation unless and until there is a recorded hostorical tradition of st. thomas being linked to India- which is certainly not the case when we refer to st. thomas related historical works like the acts of thomas. Until then we have to assume that lies have been sufficiently fed into the folklore of native christians , and such a thing is not new to christian missionaries, take the example of the roman catholic brahmin of madurai. To the syrian christians it is sufficient for their faith if they know that they have come from the disciplinic lineage of st. thomas. The claim that St. Thomas came to India had one specific purpose- To try to lure naive Indians and make them believe that jesus had a special purpose to Indians too. This is a bogus claim as there are many places in the asia claiming to have the burial of st thomas while there is not one historical record that predates the arrival of the missionary and which indicates that St. Thomas came to India and interacted with people there. why should lies ever be needed to support faith? True faith needs no clutches and can stand the destruction of speculations which may now have become tradition
Thanks,
Harish
Harish,
As you mentioned the Saint Thomas story is present in many cultures and not just in India. Most religious institutions in the West and other places have distanced themselves from such stories (in Asia and Africa) that were mainly spread during colonial times for obvious reasons. I believe that this will happen during the course of time in India as well.
St. Thomas in Kerala is a myth.
Agreed.
I was going through the comments.. it seems you still not have checked “shabda taravali” for the meaning of ‘karthav’.
Cyril,
How did you conclude after reading the comments that I have not checked “shabda taravali” for the meaning of Karthave? I think you have some mythical powers as well :)
I think that most Malayalees will tell you that Kartha in Malayalam means black or dark.
Please send me a link to the information that you are referring to. Thanks.
I don’t understand why some people trying hard to prove themselves as mainstream division among others! These so called traditional people do not have a unique identity among themselves and fighting each other for their credibility! Alas, in this fast growing world is it shame to realize that, such people still exists in this modern world.
Time and again history and evidences proved that, St. Thomas in Kerala is a myth. And the so called stories behind this were created by some churches in Kerala. There are many other important disciples for Jesus Christ. They too travelled to many other parts of the world to spread the words of Jesus. None of the people from these parts are dying hard to establish their tradition other than few people from Kerala, which is a tiny state in India. Wake-up dear people, don’t live (or behave?) like frogs in a well.
I am not a historian. But a small question if anyone can enlighten. I heard that, St. Thomas and St. Jude established some churches in Perian region (present Iran and Iraq) during AD 52. So did they arrive in Kodungalloor by flight in the same year? It is only my doubt.
Regards
Justin
May be true, may be not ……..
But it’s the belief that thousands hold close to there heart…..Its the reason why at least a minority of those thousands live a life of compassion and good deeds.
I don’t know why you are on a war with these beliefs now. From the way you write and reply to comments, I feel that you are totally engaged against this particular community who otherwise doesn’t create much trouble in there name of there religion. (of course that why there are Dan Browns and other wannabe dan browns)
It’s very clear that many of the religious stories are myths only. Most of the people who follow the religion also know that. But at the same time they also understand that there should be some truth – the spark that caused all the smoke. This is why engineers and doctors and lawyers also follow religion.
So….. Please follow the normal human courtesy of not hurting other’s sentiments. Its your right to communicate your thought. But do that in a way that does not harm other’s right practice the religion of there choice. Instead of public space, use a closed group of your friends or a group of people who hate the same community like you.
Best regards,
TJ
Toby,
You are trying to straddle the fence. You are trying to paint a picture of yourself as a compassionate, non-judgmental person and at the same time trying to portray me as a “hater” who is “at war with these beliefs”. Do you notice the contradictions?
I am just stating my opinion about a certain myth. I do not need a disingenuous individual like you to tell me how to treat another human being no matter what his/her background is.
You say that I should “follow the normal human courtesy of not hurting other’s sentiments”. In the same paragraph you say I should “use a closed group of your friends or a group of people who hate the same community like you”. You just hurt my sentiments :)
The problem with you is that you see people through a religious prism. In your opinion anyone who points out certain negative aspects of a religion must hate that religion and hang out with others who also hate that religion. Stop daydreaming about the “smoke” and the “spark” and take your mind out of the gutter that it is in.
Hi Hari,
I read your article. It may be true or false, I really dont care. But what I wanted to ask you was “Which Drug have you been having” ?? Your hallucinations makes me wonder if you have been having some top secret banned substance.
//Navin
I am disappointed in you Navin. Is this all you got: drugs, banned substance and hallucinations?
But I guess you should know a lot about hallucinations. As they say it is impossible to tell where “revelations” stop and hallucinations begin :)
“And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind” – Revelation – 4. 6
Hi Guys
Imagine the population of cochin / malabar in BC that makes thing s a lot easier it may be few thousands . The early Syrian christians in malabar /cochin were not the Hindus or the people who lived there before . they came from middle east in exile or trade may be jews , arabs or assyrians . and before british rule there was nothing called India. It was several kingdoms or countries ( as in europe). who spoke different languages . and for the sake of independence from british they created this theory of India on a religious base ( hinduism) . with that brain washing in place people do not want to say that they came from some where else then they will loose there land , social status etc . so they created the story of brahmins converted to christianity by St.thomas mostly roman catholics. and there names still reflect it like ( thomas devassykutty ) and they have the malayalam ritual which means they were the malayalee or tamil converts . but the syrian orthodox christians like jacobites or knanayas
they have the syriac /aramaic ritual. which is the language of thomas and and Jesus (assyrians or jews) . The knanaya christians still beliveve they came from Canaan and the orthodox don’t want to say it because of the fear of rejection from society . and for those who believe st thomas converted brahmins . I am not saying he didn’t, he might have converted some of them also other casts too . but the first ones should be one of those who spoke his own language.
J,
Anything is possible as long as we are imagining.
You are suggesting that the “early Syrian Christians in Malabar/Cochin” were from the Middle East and were possibly Jews, Arabs and Assyrians. They fled the Middle East (the strong hold of Christianity at that time) and then decided to settle in a predominantly non-Christian country and then decided to convert to Christianity later (why would Jews and Arabs convert to Christianity is another matter).
Trade between India, Middle East and the Mediterranean was going on for well over 4000 years. But this does not mean that there are Indian settlements in the Middle East and Mediterranean and vice versa (I have actually seen Indian paintings and murals inside ancient Greek temples and palaces in Sicily (Italy). Sicily was a Greek colony approximately between 750 BCE and 242 BCE).
You have a very interesting take on the Indian independence movement. You state that to get independence from the British the freedom fighters came up with this concept of India based on Hinduism. India got independence almost 100 years after the movement began. Initially it was just small kings or princely states resisting European rule. This changed in 1885 with the foundation of the Indian National Congress (two of the eight founders of the INS were Christians). The Indian freedom movement for the most part was about self determination from the oppressive Christian colonies from Europe who were controlling our land, our resources and in addition treating us as second class citizens for almost 500 years. Most of our founding fathers were very secular and came from very different religious and cultural backgrounds. Their vision of a secular India is reflected in our constitution.
The story of Brahmins converting to Christianity was because of fear of losing land, social status etc. in the newly independent India? There is no evidence for such a statement. In addition are the Hindus, Muslims, Christians and the government officials so foolish not to see through this “new” assertion by this community?
You say that the Jacobites and Knanayas should be the “first ones” because their churches follow the Syriac/Aramaic tradition? Most South Indian Hindu temples follow the Sanskrit scripture for worship and Pooja (This is because of the Vaishnava and Shaiva takeover of the predominantly Buddhist, Jain and animist South India beginning around the 8th and 9th centuries). If I use your logic all those South Indian Hindus who go to temples in the South are from North India. In the same vein if you attend a Church that uses English as a language for services then you must be British or American!!
Well recently in the human genome project a lot of Syrian christians were found to be descended from the jews, i.e they had genes and dna that is not found among the native indians. So there may be truth also to the myth. As in all mythology a lot of stuff may not be true but there may be something that is true.
George,
The “human genome project” is about sequencing the human DNA and has nothing to do with identifying the ethnicity of people in Kerala. To my knowledge studies were concluded in the early 2001. Thanks for providing some misleading information.
Although many studies have been done on the DNA of Indians to date nothing has been found that would indicate that “a lot of Syrian Christians” were descended from Jews. What studies have found is that all Syrian Christians and for that matter everybody else in India originated from Africa about 65,000 years ago. This would obviously contradict what the Bible says about creation!!
Hari
Pls check the FT Dna and genographic projects for syrian christians . The results of 25% of y-dna haplogroup to be J2 . Out of that 17% has been confirmed as j2a(mix of j2a4h & j2a4c).
This result means there is a signifiacant flow of genes from middle east (17 % is not insignificant).
We cant tell exactly when the migration took place but anyways it is well before 15th century
Welcome SJ.
Can you send me a link to this study?
Genetic marker M20 that is popularly known as the Middle Eastern marker is present in large numbers in India. It is very common among those who speak the Dravidian languages. The people who have this marker migrated to India from the Middle East (on their way from Africa) about 30,000 years ago. This would be long before Vedic Hinduism, Buddhism or Judaism leave alone Christianity. There is no “Syrian Christian” genetic marker that I am aware of. The markers found among Christians are also found among other religious groups.
Not Jews really, but Ephraim. Isael had 12 sons. The Jews are the sons of ‘Judha’. The tribes of Judha, Benjamin and Levi’ are collectively called ‘Judha’ but there are 9 other large tribes to be accounted. They are not lost as some would want us to believe. The Nazereans of Malabar are a mix of Judha and Ephraim. Ephraim is used to collectively address the 9 {10} other Northern Tribes.
The story of the “Lost Tribes of Israel” is a myth. This story is based on religious traditions and is not based on historical accounts. This myth tries to tie people living all over the world to Biblical prophesy (There are hundreds of “lost” tribes in the world and not ten. Some American Christians believe that Native Americans are a lost tribe). This gives a personal link (albeit false) between people living today and ancient people and their “prophets”. I recommend a book by Tudor Parfitt called the “The Lost Tribes of Israel: The History of a Myth” for more information.
Many Jews believe that the mythical lost tribes have already returned to Israel in ancient times itself and they point to many verses in the Hebrew Bible to back up their claim:
2 Chronicles 34:9: And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.
2 Chronicles 34:9: And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.
Please note what is mentioned above this and after this verse to get the context. The important thing is missed out. The point made here is all the remnant of Israel but for the Tribes like Judah and Benjamin why remanent is not being used? Please go through the Second Book of Chronicles and you will understand what i have mentioned. A little knowledge is dangerous. Still appreciate you enthusiaism of creating something from nothing. You should be a active member of ABVP or RSS or any Hindu Terrorist group(anti social elemnts).
Suraj,
Your logic is that an Indian who is from Kerala who questions certain aspects of Kerala/Indian history must be an active member of the ABVP, RSS, Hindu terrorist group and an anti social! You make these serious allegations without offering a single piece of evidence to support it. I see no difference between you and the right wing Hindu groups you rant against.
What about the current Pope who initially did not support the theory that St. Thomas visited Kerala? Is he a Hindu terrorist too? What about British authors like Godfrey Higgins who wrote about this in the 18th century? Was he a member of the ABVP or the RSS? And what about the vast majority of Christians who do not believe that Jesus Christ had a twin brother and that the Gospel of Thomas is false, heretical and does not deserve to be canonized? Are they all anti-social?
You take the scripture that I quoted, provide your spin on it and then summarily dismiss it as “little knowledge”. Do you know that there are millions of people on this Earth who do not believe in the lost tribes’ myth? Do you know that there are many books written by experts on scripture and history on it? Have you read any one of them? And you are the one trying to put things in context for me?
Seek help before you fall off the edge!
In the end when we are in trouble or about to die, each and every one of us human beings call upon our gods to save us. So my friend hari let people believe in what they have to, if it brings thm closer to God. Like your families who believe in mahabaratha, the ideology about Hanuman who flies and arrows that bring lightining. See people believe that cause they have faith in that idea. So dont try to ruin a christian faith about “St thomas never stepped in kerala”. Thank you, have a nice day.
Big Bang,
You are free to believe in whatever you want. I am not forcing anyone to change their beliefs. I do not have that power.
As you pointed out people who believe in the Mahabharata and Ramayana (Hanuman) stories do so because they have “faith in the idea”. Not because they are necessarily factual. This is also true for Bible stories as well (one of my favorites is about a talking donkey mentioned in Numbers 22: 28-30).
You do not “ruin” Hinduism by stating your views on Hanuman nor do I “ruin” Christianity by talking about the Saint Thomas myth. We are not living in the middle ages.
Everybody is an atheist when it comes to others religions!
Suriyani or Syrian is not derived from the word ‘Surya’ or sun. Suriyani is derived from the word ‘Cyrus’ or ‘Kuroosh’ who was one of the greatest Emperors or the world and whose court language was Aramaic and this particular dialect was called ‘Syriac’ after him ‘Cyrus’. This is basic and fundamental. Anyone with a basic knowledge of Aramaic will tell you. The Nazereans and the Jews used Syriac. So even the Jews of Malabar were called ‘Syrians’ alongwith the Nazereans.
Suriyan means the Sun in both Tamil and Malayalam (the language spoken by almost of the “Syrian Christians” of Kerala). So instead of making the obvious connection between Suriyan and Suriyani (Christiani in Malayalam means a follower of Christ) you are stating that Suriyani is somehow derived from Cyrus and Kuroosh!
Sol, Sur, Suri, Solar and Surya all mean the Sun in many languages in the world including most Indian languages. The question is not how Cyrus relates to Suriyani but when and how some Christians in Kerala came to be known as the Syrian Christians. As I mentioned earlier the oldest Syriac Christian texts found in India are from the late 15th century well after the arrival of the Portuguese in India. No one in India was referred to as “Syrian Christian” prior to the arrival of the Europeans.
Quote “Suriyan means the Sun in both Tamil and Malayalam (the language spoken by almost of the “Syrian Christians” of Kerala). So instead of making the obvious connection between Suriyan and Suriyani (Christiani in Malayalam means a follower of Christ) you are stating that Suriyani is somehow derived from Cyrus and Kuroosh! ”
The argument is not a rational one at all. If the syrian christians did not have tradition that resembled the greek orthodox traditions of the syrian church, then we could have granted some weightage to your soorya twist. But their essential faith and religious customs are heavily influenced by this, apart from the fact that thomas himself was known to have been in syria according to ancient records available even today.To understand this meaning one has to take in the background of the people who call themselves sooriyani. They follow traditions that bear resemblence only to the culture of syria. so either these folks were inspired by traders who travelled to syria or traders from syria came here to India and influenced them. we may not be sure when, but that certainly did happen. just in the same way that we speak english and it is certain that either engish came here or some one here went to england and learnt their language and culture and brought them to India.
Your argument that “they follow traditions that bear resemblance only to the culture of Syria” does not hold water. Outside of some “ritualistic” use of Syriac they follow traditions that are very much Indian. The sanctum sanctorum is closed using a red curtain and only opened during auspicious moments (during Qurbana). This is a tradition found also among Hindus in Kerala. Many Syrian Christians in Kerala follow Hindu astrology. They believe in arranged marriages, dowry and follow the caste system and rarely marry outside their caste. The marriage ceremony, coming of age ceremony, practices surrounding death in the family etc. all have tremendous similarities with the Nairs of Kerala.
Please read “Saints, Goddesses and Kings: Muslims and Christians in South Indian Society 1700 – 1900” by Susan Bayly or L.W. Brown’s book titled “The Indian Christians of Saint Thomas: An Account of the Ancient Syrian Church” for more information regarding the strong connections between Syrian Christian tradition and the Nair traditions of Kerala.
see it not really the matter someone tryed to make any distinct identity being indian regarding nasrani. nasranis being hetrogenious mixture that they are many immigration from middleast noted and i think it really true. many they locally married and populated. as nationlist says i dont think it just a mass conversion of hinuds itself syrian christians. it qualify many of the middleastern immigraton with dravidian influnces basically and those following centuries there are hinudus mixed in to it. so if someone want to extract syrian christians are brahimns hundus it totally wrong at the same way if someone bring the point syrian christians are assyrian syrian aremmenian or israelites, jews it wrong because intermarriage happened. it compramise bothside. i would want to look at it as more semitic community as ancient muslim community in kozhikode.
Welcome CR,
The migration from Middle East is yet to be proven. I do agree with you that there is a heterogeneous mixture. The Syrian Malabar Nasrani traditions show influence of Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Hinduism.
Do you have the source for the following line?
“They [Portuguese] also assumed that some of these Indians [Nazarenes] might be the lost tribes of Israel.”
Thanks.
“Hope of Israel” written by R. Manasseh ben Israel of Amsterdam talks about a Portuguese crypto-Jew by the name of Aaron Levi (Antonio de Montezinos) who claimed that the native peoples in new formed European colonies were the lost tribes. Joseph Israel (1818-1864) who was a Romanian-born Jewish traveler who had also traveled to India was the first to propose that the Bene Israel in India were descendants of the lost tribes.
Please also read “The Bene Israel of Bombay: A study of a Jewish community” by Schifra Strizower on his theory about how Christian missionaries and/or Jewish travelers probably spread the story of the Ten Tribes in India and passed it on to Bene Israel and others.
well i dont know who exactly the bene israel were, but jews by blood they certainly were as confirmed by genetic studies which shows them belonging to the lineage of priestly cohens
I am not aware of such a conclusion or such a study. Can you send me a link to these studies showing that they are from priestly Cohens? According to the studies that I am familiar with Paternal Y chromosome of some Bene Israel shares some characteristics with other Jewish populations (This is also found among many non-Jewish people in India). Maternal mitochondrial DNA shows that they are from the Indian sub-continent.
I can not stop laughing…you also chose an excellent day for posting your theory…aioooo…hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
As they say … laughter is the best medicine :)
It will be good if u learn western syriac. Good hypothesis!! Hats offs to you. I don’t understand why the catholic church is behind the Syrian Christians. The best place to start understanding the Syrian Christians will be from the Synod of Udayamperoor at 1599. There are 20 demands put up by the Christianized Pangan practicing church, commonly known as Roman Catholics Church. It is crystal clear that the Syrians Christians are Jewish converts. It is the Roman catholic church that came up with a new hypothesis stating that the Syrian christians are Brahmin converts. There is no difficulty to prove genetically that Syrian Christians have J2 Y DNA. Please refer to the Jewish Globe to understand more of the origin of Nasrani faith(www.jewishglobe.com/Jewish_Christians.html ).
The roman catholic church is playing different tricks to deceive people.
IMPORTANT THING : All that the pope wants is to get more and more people to follow him. The only place that the people can grantly a person is to the lake of fire. Please follow The Messiah(Yeshuva). He alone is the way, the truth and the life. Please follow the Lamb of God and not a sinful man like the pope.
Welcome Suraj.
About 7% (about 80 million) of the people of India are estimated to have the J2 Y DNA. Even if we assume that a few million of them are Syrian Christians, the vast major of the people who carry the genes are not Christians. I do not believe that Syrian Christians belong to a particular genetic group. The link you provided about the Nasrani Christians retells the Saint Thomas myth. I obviously do not believe in this myth.
I understand the part about the Catholic Church. What what about the other churches such the Jacobite Orthodox and such? And what the Knanaya people?
What about them?
If the Catholics in Kerala are a product of the Portuguese, what about the others?
I did not state that the Catholics in Kerala are a product of the Portuguese.
Well, for all we know, it could have happened the other way round. Hindus may have borrowed Krishna from the Jesus story and spread it after adding “masala” (a lot of it – 3000 wives and all…). That’s what we do when we borrow stories from Hollywood, don’t we?
I do not want to argue about how many girlfriends Krishna had or whether Jesus was gay or about the “immaculate conception”. There is no doubt in my mind or in the minds of most historians that the mythologies of Krishna, Buddha, Zeus and many other sun gods predate the mythology of the sun god Jesus by hundreds if not thousands of years.
You surely have your numbers right, Hari. But I would call it foolish to have faith on anything that was destroyed by the Noahic flood. Don’t miss the bus, or you will end up “gnashing your teeth”. Come into the Sonshine.
Thanks for the advice but don’t loose sleep over the Noahic flood. It is just a story that is found in other religions as well. A story very similar to Noah’s ark and the flood can be found in Manusmriti (Laws of Manu).
Following is the flood story from the Mahabharat:
“The time for the purging of this world is now ripe. Therefore do I now explain what is good for thee! The mobile and immobile divisions of the creation, those that have the power of locomotion, and those that have it not, of all these the terrible doom hath now approached. Thou shall build a strong massive ark and have it furnished with a long rope. On that must thou ascend, O great Muni, with the seven Rishis and take with thee all the different seeds which were enumerated by regenerate Brahmanas in days of yore, and separately and carefully must thou preserve them therein” – Mahabharata III.clxxxvi.
What motivates you to write like this son?
Who pays you for it?
The power of the brain that god gave all of us. You don’t have to get paid to use it. It is free. You should give it a try!
But surely you would not be naive enough to base the eternal redemption of your soul on mythologies. It has been tried and
tested many times that only the Bible offers a completely rational explanation for the reason behind man’s existence. The
Bible reveals the mysteries of this universe. Kindly do tell me where in the mythologies will you find parallel statements
about:
The earth is hanging in space (and not sitting on Atlas’ shoulder or on a turtle’s back) – JOB 26:7
The earth is round – ISAIAH 40:22
The existense of dinosaurs – JOB 40:15-24
The existense of cavemen – JOB 30:1-8
The existense of hydrological cycle – JOB 36:27-28
The existense of ice age – JOB 38:29-30
The existense of underwater ocean springs – JOB 38:16 (By the way, the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible)
The existense of underwater mountains JONAH 2:5-6
The existense of atoms and molecules – HEBREWS 11:3
I’ve listed just a few. If you want I can give you more.
I assume that you have a Bible (Every gnostic (“naastik”) has one).
If not these facts, please do show me some other scietific facts that can be found in the mythologies.
I do not want to make this in to a conversation about which religion is true or whether the Bible is the only document that reveals the mysteries of the universe. The Bible reveals nothing more than what people of those times already knew. This is true for all other scriptures.
You indulge in some fancy interpretation of Bible verses to arrive at your conclusions. For example you point out to Isaiah 40:22 to prove that the earth is round. This is what Isaiah 40:22 states: “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in”. This is not enough to prove the shape of the earth by today’s standard. Also I hope that you learnt in school that the earth is not round but spherical. The universe is multidimensional and there is nothing called above or below the earth (this is earth centric view). So how is god enthroned above the circle of the earth? If god is circling the earth then it means that god like the rest of us, is “inside” and a tiny part of the entire observable universe that scientists believe is 14 billion parsecs (4.6 × 10 to the power 10 light years) in any direction!
Of course you left out other interesting things that are said in the Bible that the entire universe was created in 6 days and god rested on the 7th day and that the earth was created before the sun. You also forgot to mention that the Book of Genesis has two different creation stories!
Peace.
Greetings!
The Bible is God’s words for the people, that’s why it is earth”-centric”. Why comments for only “earth is round” statement (round is the closest term to spherical. There is nothing wrong in saying that “The moon is round or a circle” or “Your head is round”.), what about the other statements?
Yes, the universe is multi-dimentional; the earth is hanging in space (JOB 26:7).
And, no, most of these facts were not commonly know in those times. It was impossible, for instance, for people to know that matter was made up of particles indiscernible to the eyes.
Here I am not saying that only the Bible contains knowledge or facts. That would be narrow-mindedness. But, yes, it contains facts which i cannot ignore.
Do you think God is not capable of creating the universe in six days?
And God did not create the sun later. He did it the very first thing. (You are a sun man, that’s why you worry, I guess). GENESIS 1:3 “Let there be light.” I am sure he did not put on a light switch.
The difference between saying that the Earth is spherical versus saying it is round is the difference between knowing and not knowing. I can look at the Moon and the Sun standing on Earth and think that it is round and therefore assume that the Earth is round. But to stand on Earth and prove that the Earth is spherical is a very difficult thing to do. Apparently it was a difficult task for god too!
God getting some of the facts right and most of it wrong does not satisfy an individual like me. God should get everything right. No exceptions. Even most Christians in this world (particularly in the developed nations) no longer believe in the six day creation story. In fact the Vatican has accepted evolution of the human body. The following is an excerpt from the address Pope John Paul made on October 22, 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:
“Today, almost half a century after the publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory”.
The evolutionary theory is at best just a theory. Just read this story I’ve written especially for you:
Teen bird to Mama bird: “Mama, what are these useless bumps on the sides of my body.”
Mama bird: “You wait a bit, darling. In a billion years those bumps will develop into wings that will help you fly. Meanwhile take good care of those bumps, okay.”
Sorry, I’m too practical to believe in an evolutionary theory proposed by man and not so naive as to disregard the word of God.
You do not have to be sorry. I am not trying to convert you.
Since you had a Mama Bird story for me I have a Bible story for you from Genesis 38 8-10. I am sure you will disregard “the word of God” in this particular situation:
Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
nice post….thanks brother…