Vishwa : “Buddha never said this a religion of my own .”

I would also say that the Buddha’s dharma is for all, regardless of the faith they belong to. However, that doesn’t mean that he didn’t intend to set up a dispensation that follow his instruction as it is without adding or subtracting. Setting up a religion is simply a way to preserve the teaching in its purest form and reduce the possibility of dilution so that it will remain effective for later generations when they want to experience liberation through his teaching.

People from various belief are more than welcome to take up what they are comfortable with and leave out what doesn’t go well with their personal taste. The establishment of the new religion is for those who are ready to practice the path as he taught it and experience the intended outcome of the path. Therefore, the Buddha established a new religion when he was alive.

Vishwa :”Buddha shown the way how to live at that particular time and since it was relavent at that particular time many people accepted it”

Wouldn’t you say that it is relevant today as well?

What a lively conversation. Indeed, when it comes to his past before Awakening the Buddha said in the Metta Sutta :

” I developed the thought of loving kindness for seven years and did not come to this world for seven aeons of cosmic-contraction and cosmic-expansion. Whenever the world was destroyed, I entered ( by way of rebirth) among the devas of Streaming Radiance, and when the world unfolded again, I was born in an empty Brahma-palace. There, I was Mahabrahma, the unvanquished victor , holding authority for seven times. And thirty-six times I was Sakka, king of the devas, and many hundred times I was a universal monarch, a just and righteous king.”

When it comes to his identity after Awakening , there is no identification with any types/ class of beings living within the 31 planes of existence as his true identity. This includes God, human , animal, etc..( although he has been all of these before when residing in these planes). During the life as Sakka or Brahma, he is still within the boundary of the 31 planes of samsara and not liberated or awakened yet.

In the Dona Sutta, the Buddha said he is not identified with being a deva , human being (or various types of beings found in any other planes) but simply ” Awakened” ( Buddha).

On seeing him, Dona went to him and said, “Master, are you a deva?”

“No, brahmin, I am not a deva.”
“Are you a gandhabba?”
“No…”
“… a yakkha?”
“No…”
“… a human being?”
“No, brahmin, I am not a human being.”

“Remember me, brahmin, as ‘awakened.’ ”

After Awakening, he spent his time teaching both human and devas the path to Awakening. One of his description is a “Teacher of Human and Deva ” ( Sattha devamanussanam) .

I would like to add the following comments: Buddha in the eyes of some of us is an intelligent person (human) who reformed society. This view is an attempt by other religions to downgrade him from what he really is. I agree that there are some Buddhists who see Buddha strictly as a reformer and a philosopher (Buddhism is one of the fastest growing religions in the West and this aspect of Buddhism is what the West loves the most).

But there is a lot of scripture to support the fact that Buddha was indeed God and treated like god by his followers and those who wrote about him. Buddha had several incarnations as a Deva prior to being born as Siddhartha. Buddhism has polytheistic, pantheistic and monotheistic aspects that cannot be ignored.

The following is a translation of an inscription found in Bodh Gaya. These comments also show the tug of war between competing gods. Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesha according to these inscriptions are all various forms of Buddha!

Reverence be unto thee, in the form of Buddha: reverence be unto the Lord of the earth: reverence be unto thee, an incarnation of the Deity, and the Eternal One: reverence be unto thee, O God! in the form of the God of Mercy: the dispeller of pain and trouble; the Lord of all things; the Deity who overcomest the sins of the Kali Yug; the guardian of the universe; the emblem of mercy toward those who serve thee—O’M! the possessor of all things in vital form. Thou art Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa; thou are Lord of the universe; Reverence be unto the bestower of salvation I adore thee, who art celebrated by a thousand names, and under various forms, in the shape of Buddha, the God of Mercy.—Be propitious, O Most High God!

Modern day Hinduism is a collection of different religions, beliefs and scriptures. One aspect of this religion is the mythology that you will find in scriptures like the Vedas. But similar mythology exists in other religions also like Zorastrianism, Mithraism and the Abrahamic religions. For example you will find the concept of Brahm in the Vedas and also in Hinduism, Buddhism and Abrahmic religions (Ab-brahm, Ibrahim). When you state that Hinduism existed before Buddhism then you are referring to an aspect of modern day Hinduism that existed before the historic Buddha. But these ancient mythologies are common to most other religions and Hinduism cannot claim exclusive rights.

Hinduism is a relatively new religion that incorporates very ancient and vastly different traditions and beliefs. Some of these religions were dominating religions themselves at one point and at war with each other (Shaivism vs Vaishnavism is a good example).

Hinduism existed long before Siddhartha was born. He incorporated some of it into his own beliefs.

Stating the facts as I know it (and understood by millions of Buddhists in the world) is not a bias.

We do not know a lot about the “Vedic civilization” if there was one. We do not know for sure even if some the Vedic scriptures were written in the Indian context. There are a lot of similarities in the ancient mythologies of India, Iran and parts of the Middle East.

Your attempt to connect the mythical Vedic civilization to modern day Hinduism to prove that Hinduism existed long before Buddhism is rather lame.

Ur bias for buddhism shows in this post..Buddhism did not predate Hinduism…infact Hinduism existed long before Buddhism..the vedic civilisation existed before 1500 B.C

Buddha was a reformer and a improviser… his sham enlightenment was nothing but gaining knowledge from other hindu religious teachers from ..nothing original…infact Zoraster is the real mastermind of all our moral teachings.

now i am sure, u like to live in alternate buddhist reality..and so cant wait for ur distorted facts.

I hope u have the guts to take me on religious debate.

The information you provided about the basic concepts of Buddhism, the differences between Buddhism and Jainism and the transition from Shvetaketu to Buddha is very fascinating to say the least. The last comment by Charles Elliot that you quoted in your response is very relevant to this discussion. Thank you very much for the knowledge.

Yes, you are right. After being born into the human realm, he is indeed a considered human. From that point on he considered himself a man and not a god. The info above was about the time before he decided to take birth as a human from Tushita realm.

In Buddhist cosmology, it is not unusual to take birth in one realm in one life and another realm in another life depending on your kamma. You can be a human in the present life and be a deva , animal, or brahma in a previous life or the next. Yet none of these identities can be considered your permanent / true identity. Just like in one dream you are a man, in another you are elephant, yet an angel in another. Once you awaken, you don’t take any of these roles in your dream to be yourself. For this reason, the Buddha doesn’t emphasized on becoming god or reborn as human in the spiritual life but only Awakening and liberation from the whole cycle.

About the Buddha started life as a Hindu, I would say that the Pali Canon indicated that he started the spiritual life practicing like the Jains until he eventually abandoned his self-mortification practices. And others who practiced with him at the time left him because he is no longer torturing himself physically :

“Originally, Hindu was a secular term which was used to describe all inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent (or Hindustan) irrespective of their religious affiliation. It occurs sporadically in some 16th-18th century Bengali Gaudiya Vaishnava texts, including Chaitanya Charitamrita and Chaitanya Bhagavata, usually to contrast Hindus with Yavanas or Mlecchas.[17] It was only towards the end of the 18th century that the European merchants and colonists referred collectively to the followers of Indian religions as Hindus.

Eventually, it came to define a precisely religious identity that includes any person of Indian origin who neither practiced Abrahamic religions nor non-Vedic Indian religions, such as Jainism, Sikhism or Buddhism, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices related to San?tana Dharma.” – Wikipedia

Hinduism emphasizes:
1. Rituals.
2. Caste system
3. ethics have so small a place in its fundamental conceptions.
4. God centered

The Buddha doesn’t emphasizes rituals and caste system. Virtue ( ethical conducts) is a requisite in meditation practice. In other words, purity in words, thought , and action is crucial in the path.
The Buddha did not deny the existence nor forbid the worship of the popular gods, but such worship is not Buddhism and the gods are merely angels who may be willing to help good Buddhists but are in no wise guides to religion, since they need instruction themselves. The focus of the Noble Eightfold Path is not so much about worshipping god, achieving heaven in the next life ( perhaps for a number of lay devotees but not bhikkhus/ bhikkhunis), experiencing Brahma consciousness in this life or the next. The reason is that in all these realms, beings are subject to rebirth after some period of time. It is like going around in circles in the round of rebirth despite all the effort and striving. Therefore, the purpose of the holy life in the Buddha’s path is about liberation from the cycle of rebirth and experience Awakening in this very life ( some might take longer, depending on the person). The Buddha himself realized Awakening after about 6 years of practice. He enter into Sunya/ ??nyat?, dwell in rapture, sukkha ( happiness) , tranquility, equanimity, and the like , also visit any realms he feels like in this very life , here and now. He is liberated from all rebirth in samsara now and after parinirvana.

Jainism emphasizes:

- asceticism , self-mortification, or torturing the body, as a means of purifying the soul and obtaining supernatural powers.

Buddhism is similar to Jainism regarding no animal sacrifice/ human sacrifice. However, the Buddha wouldn’t suggest his disciples to take up self-mortification, or torturing the body. The middle way is neither indulgence in sensual desires nor is it self- mortification. Also the Buddha doesn’t place emphasis on supernatural powers . If it happens, it is just the icing on the cake. Also his forbid disciples from showing it to the laity for the sake of fame.

” No temples or images remain to illustrate the first growth of Hinduism ( as the later form of Indian religion is commonly styled) out of the earlier Brahmanism……..we have evidence that in the fifth or sixth century before Christ the Vedic or Brahmanic religion was not the only form of worship and philosophy in India. There were popular deities and rites to which the Brahmans were not opposed and which they countenanced when it suited them. What takes place in India today took place then. When some aboriginal deity becomes important owing to the prosperity of the tribe or locality with which he is connected, he is recognized by the Brahmans and admitted to their pantheon, perhaps as the son or incarnation of some personage more generally accepted as divine. The prestige of the Brahmans is sufficient to make such recognition an honor, but it is also their interest and millennial habit to secure control of every important religious movement and to incorporate rather than suppress. “- Sir Charles Elliot

According to the myth, Vishnu came down as Buddha ( his 9th incarnation). He will come down again as a horseman ( 10th incarnation).

According to the biography of the Buddha, he was a Mahapurusha (great being) named Shvetaketu. Tushita Heaven ( Home of the Contented gods) was the name of the realm he dwelled before taking his last birth on earth as Buddha. There is no more rebirth for a Buddha. Before leaving the Tushita realm to take birth on earth, he designated Maitreya to take his place there. Maitreya will come to earth as the next Buddha, instead of him coming back again.
Krishna was a past life of Sariputra, a chief disciple of the Buddha. He wasn’t a god and have not attained enlightenment during that life as Krishna. Therefore, he came back to be reborn during the life of the Buddha and reached the first stage of Enlightenment after encountering an enlightened disciple of the Buddha. He reached full Arahantship/ full Awakening not long after became ordained in the Buddha’s sangha.

From the Lalitavistara Sutta :
“The Bodhisattva in the Tushita Heaven. Prior to his final birth and enlightenment underneath the Bodhi Tree, the Bodhisattva resided in a great palace in the Tushita heaven . After being consecrated, lauded, praised and glorified by a hundred thousand Devas, the voices of a hundred thousand million kotis of apsaras sang out in unison “Now is the time come; let it not pass unused.”
“The Bodhisattva announces his approaching human birth.It was announced that in twelve years time the Bodhisattva would descend into a mother’s womb…….”
“It would not be becoming of us, o worthy ones, and would be a token of ingratitude should we allow the Bodhisattva to depart along and unattended,” proclaimed the king of the Devas to the heavenly host. “Who among us is able to faithfully and continually attend the Bodhisattva?”………
“Upon hearing these words, the eighty four-thousand Devas of the Four Great Kings as well as hundreds and thousands of Devas from the East, South West and North gathered together.”….
“Hearken o rulers of the immortals to these words and consider this irrevocable decision,” spoke the highest of the Deva-sons to the heavenly host. “Forsaking riches, love and pleasure and the great happiness of meditation, we shall bind ourselves faithfully to this pure being.”……
“The Bodhisattvas of the Ten Winds render homage to the future Buddha. When the time of the Bodhisattva’s descent had arrived, many hundred thousand bodhisattvas from the East, as well as many hundred thousand bodhisattvas from the countries of the ten winds, all bound to only one more birth, gathered to render homage to the future Buddha.”……..
“The Descent of the Bodhisattva and the conception. After the Bodhisattva had placed himself on the lion-throne that originates from all his merits, he departed the Tushita heaven surrounded by a hundred thousand million kotis of bodhisattvas, Devas, nagas and yaksas…”
“When the winter was over in the month of Vaichakha (mid-April to mid-May), the Bodhisattva descended from the beautiful Tushita abode and entered the womb of his mother .”…..
“The Devas pay homage to the Bodhisattva’s earthly abode. After he had entered his mother’s womb, a jeweled pavilion (Ratnavyuha) sprang up to house the Bodhisattva, who in his final existence does not have the nature of the fleshly substance of a fetus. Within the pavilion he was seated with crossed legs, complete with all his limbs and with all the requisite tokens.”…….
“Accompanied by a divine host and in possession of the drop of essence, Brahma approached the Bodhisattva’s jeweled palace to behold him, to adore him and serve him, and to hear the Dharma.”……
“The Bodhisattva was born at the end of ten full months……”
“Filled with profound reverence, the Devas Brahma and Sakka received the Bodhisattva and wrapped him in a silk garment of gold and silver threads, recognizing and knowing him. When the Bodhisattva descended to the ground, the earth split open and a great lotus rose to receive him. Naga kings showered him with streams of warm and cool water as a heavenly host sprinkled him with perfumed water and flower blossoms. The Bodhisattva placed himself on the lotus and looked towards the four winds……”

The Buddha did mentioned however, that he was Rama in a past life ( but not Krishna). The text also indicated that, the next person coming will not be him either. During the life as Rama, he was highly developed. But he was not yet enlightened in that life .

The Buddha started his spiritual life by exploring spirituality as a saddhu. It appears that he took up practices similar to the Jains. He later abandoned it because he realized that self-mortification, asceticism, and torturing the body only makes it unconducive to entering a Jhana state he recalled having entered by chance as a child. That was the meditation state he used to realized awakening wisdom.

For a thorough background research into Hinduism and Buddhism, I recommend the book ” Hinduism and Buddhism, A Historical Sketch” by Charles Elliot

This is a good point. I wonder what religion existed besides Brahmanism during the time of the Buddha.

What I heard from a Hindu ” enlightened master” was that there were a large number of bad people and outcast. But the gods couldn’t just get rid of them. Therefore Vishnu took birth on earth to become the Buddha. He said the Buddha try to speak their (the outcast) language by being a rebel as well as a technique to guide the outcast. They put a statue of the Buddha on the side in the shrine room of the Temple, people are not recommended to follow his teachings because it is intended for the outcasts and bad people, ie.. criminals,etc..Most dharma talks is about Shiva sutra, patanjali, etc..So the Buddha was just there in the corner for decoration or something. This is coming from someone who claimed to be “enlightened” and worshiped by other Hindus.

This means that they are making the Buddha a minor deity in their religion and refuse to recognize Buddhism as a legitimate religion. That way there is no Buddhism for people to convert to. Depite being placed as a minor deity in Hinduism, people are discouraged to learn about his teaching by way of making up the above story.

Vast majority of people find it comforting to pray to some higher power. Buddhism evolved to meet this spiritual need, even though the founder never recommended it. (Likewise, I doubt if Ram or Krishna considered themselves divine.)